Un forgeron démonte le principal argument des complotistes du 11-septembre
- Initiateur de la discussion biiovibs
- Date de début
Hello
Tu sais bien qu'on ne peut leur en vouloir les complotistes ne sont pas des professionnels et moi non plus.
Pourrais tu me dire ce que tu penses de leur version sur la nano-thermite hautement énergique stp?
Merci
Pour moi toute thèse fondée sur le minage préalable des tours avec des explosifs est irréaliste.
didadoune
VIB
Ok je ne sais pas du tout je ne m'y connais pas hormis que j'ai cru comprendre que cette ''thèse'' s'appuyait sur des traces retrouvé de nano-thermite inerte et réseau d'influence, mais je n'en sais pas plus.
Parce qu'un pâtissier ne travaille pas le métal.
Une minorité...et tous ridiculisés par le reste des spécialistes.
De toute façon n'importe quel pompier te dira qu'ils apprennent qu'il est bien plus risqué de rentrer dans un bâtiment en flammes à charpente métallique que le même bâtiment avec une charpente bois...
Mais bon convaincre un complotiste est peine perdue...
Hello
Tu sais bien qu'on ne peut leur en vouloir les complotistes ne sont pas des professionnels et moi non plus.
Pourrais tu me dire ce que tu penses de leur version sur la nano-thermite hautement énergique stp?
Merci
Si si, il y a des professionnels parmi les complotistes.
Ca ne les empêche pas d'être complètement ***.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architects_&_Engineers_for_9/11_Truth
Le must, c'est l'abruti qui démontre sa théorie avec des cartons (fondateur du groupe en question !) :
Et NON, ce type n'est PAS un fake !
Ouaiiiis, les grands architecte, trop drôle, vu la démonstration du fondateur de leur groupe, tu permettras que je sois plié en 4
Hello
Tu sais bien qu'on ne peut leur en vouloir les complotistes ne sont pas des professionnels et moi non plus.
Pourrais tu me dire ce que tu penses de leur version sur la nano-thermite hautement énergique stp?
Merci
didadoune
VIB
didadoune
VIB
Tu devrais suivre l'actualité et te fier au médias au lieu de remettre en question la vérité avec des scientifiques du dimanche, heureusement que j'ai bac moins huit, je ne m'abrutis pas avec des conneries scientifique mais je m'informe grâce à la version officielle et approuver qui connait les vrais scientifiques des faux.
C'est ça. ....
Surtout on se demande la valeur des avis de spécialistes qui connaissent moins bien les propriétés des métaux qu'un simple forgerons.
Specialistes qui se sont fait les c. En or en alimentant les délires complotistes
momojojo
VIB
Le complot et pas sur le bâtiment ça aurais demander trop de moyenHello
Tu sais bien qu'on ne peut leur en vouloir les complotistes ne sont pas des professionnels et moi non plus.
Pourrais tu me dire ce que tu penses de leur version sur la nano-thermite hautement énergique stp?
Merci
Remettre en cause la version gouvernementale est un exercice très sain. Car il y a toujours des zones qu'ils passent sous silence.
Mais de là à imaginer un scénario abracadabrantesque il y a un pas que tout le monde ne franchit pas
Et cela n'aurait pas été assez discret surtout.
Tu imaginer e la main d'oeuvre et les temps pour miner les 2 tours du wtc ? Façon destruction contrôle en plus....
Et personne n'a rien vu... pas un témoin rien....
didadoune
VIB
Il est ou ce complot ?
momojojo
VIB
dans l attaque elle même quelqu'un a tiré le ficelle les service secret étais au courant
Ces impossible pour faire tomber un bâtiment il faut du boulot énormes ces impossible percer les pilée mettre les charge les raccorder entre ces des semaine dernière boulot et logiste de fou
pas tres scientifique de comparer une barre d'acier toute fine a des poutres fondatrices beaucoup plus grosses
taille et poids de sa barre d'acier? expoistion calorique de cette barre (1800°F * temps d'exposition a la chaleur)
deja les tailles ne sont pas comparables
le temps d'exposition est il le meme? d'ailleurs il les expose a 1800°C au lieu de moins de 1500°C
bref trop de différrences pour etre pris au serieux
didadoune
VIB
Allah wouallem il y en à qui dise que c'est la cia d'autre le mossad, ou les deux
pour le mossad, ils ce base par exemple sur des arrestations genre comme ici mais alors la cia s'annule si le fbi les à éventuellement arrêter
A NATION CHALLENGED: THE DETAINEES; Dozens of Israeli Jews Are Being Kept in Federal Detention
By TAMAR LEWIN with ALISON LEIGH COWAN
Published: November 21, 2001
Among the more than 1,100 people the government has detained since Sept. 11 are dozens of young Israeli Jews who came to the United States in recent months and took jobs selling trinkets at shopping malls throughout the country.
Charged with working without proper papers, some have been kept in detention by the Immigration and Naturalization Service for nearly a month. In some cases, the immigration service has invoked special post-Sept. 11 laws to keep the Israelis in jail but presented no evidence of a link to the terrorism investigation.
''We think there are about 50 in detention now, in San Diego, Houston, Kansas City, St. Louis and Cleveland, and there are some who have been released,'' said Ido Aharoni, a spokesman for the Israeli consulate in New York. ''It's not easy to get an exact count. They may be embarrassed that they were working illegally, and we only find out when their mothers call, because they haven't been in touch, and we check and find them in jail.''
Normally, working without papers is treated as a minor offense, for which foreigners are not detained.
While both the detainees and their lawyers say they are baffled by the detentions, some of those familiar with the cases said they believed the impetus was the interest of law enforcement officials in companies that offer young Israelis -- and perhaps others in the Middle East -- help in coming to, and working in, the United States.
''It's hard to understand,'' said Suzanne Brown, a St. Louis lawyer representing 5 of the 10 Israelis detained there. ''Just today, I talked with the I.N.S. officer in charge of the St. Louis office, who said he doesn't know who is conducting the investigation of the Israelis. And what are they investigating? I don't know.''
In Ohio, on Oct. 31, the immigration service detained nine men and two women, all of whom had valid passports and tourist visas. Nine of the 11 were released on bond on Friday, but two remain in the Medina County jail, outside of Cleveland. The next hearing for the Israelis -- all in their early 20's and recently finished with their Israeli army service -- is scheduled for Nov. 27, in Cleveland.
''It doesn't make sense that they held any of these kids as long as they did, and we don't know of any reason why they're still holding two,'' said David Leopold, the Cleveland lawyer representing them. ''You hear there's more than 1,000 detainees, and if these cases are any example, you have to wonder if they're just locking people up to make it look like they're getting somewhere on their investigation.''
Dan Nelson, a spokesman for the Justice Department, said that he was unaware of the Israeli detainees, but that generally, since Sept. 11, there has been greater scrutiny of those who violate immigration laws.
''We are taking every step we can to prevent future terrorist attacks,'' Mr. Nelson said. ''We are conducting the largest investigation in U.S. history, and we are leaving no stone unturned.''
In New York, immigration officials began deporting five young Israeli moving men who have been in federal custody since Sept. 11. Two of the deportees, Oded Ellner and Omer Gavriel Marmari, landed in Tel Aviv yesterday. The others, Paul Kurzberg and his brother Sivan, and Yaron Shmuel, were expected to fly to Israel today.
The five aroused attention in New Jersey after people noticed them going to unusual lengths to photograph the World Trade Center ruins and making light of the situation. One photograph developed by the F.B.I. showed Sivan Kurzberg holding a lighted lighter in the foreground, with the smoldering wreckage in the background, said Steven Noah Gordon, a lawyer for the five.
As objectionable as their behavior may be, Mr. Gordon said of their long incarceration, ''It's not a crime and they were being treated as if it was.''
The five were asked to take polygraph tests before being allowed to leave. But Paul Kurzberg refused on principle to divulge much about his role in the Israeli army or subsequently working for people who may have had ties to Israeli intelligence, Mr. Gordon said. His client had trouble with one seven-hour polygraph test administered last week, but did better on a second try.
Mr. Kurzberg's lawyer said it was his understanding that Attorney General John Ashcroft had to sign off on his release.
In the Ohio cases, the immigration service said at a hearing last week that the 11 Israelis were ''special'' nonterrorist cases. But Judge Elizabeth Hacker, the immigration judge conducting the hearing, questioned the agency's case for keeping the Israelis in jail.
''Although the service alleges that these cases are 'special,' it has failed to present any credible evidence of the basis for this finding,'' Judge Hacker said in a bond memorandum. ''Indeed, the service has failed to submit any evidence of terrorist activity or of a threat to the national security. There is no evidence of the risk of harm to the community.''
Russell Bergeron, a spokesman for the immigration service, said decisions on when to refuse bond were made case by case.
When Judge Hacker set bond, the government filed an emergency appeal, which, under procedures adopted last month, automatically allows the government extra time to detain people.
At the hearing, the government lawyers said the Israelis were the subject of a criminal investigation by the F.B.I. of an individual or company that promised living and travel expenses in return for selling at shopping-mall pushcarts. The government says the Ohio detainees worked for Quality Sales Inc., a Florida concern.
Tom Dean, the lawyer representing Quality Sales, declined to provide information about the company or its principals, but he said the company was cooperating with federal authorities to resolve ''any concern about possible criminal conduct.''
The F.B.I. refused to comment on its dealings with Quality Sales or other such companies.
Some of those familiar with the cases said such companies may provide an open channel for terrorists to enter the country without background checks.
The Israelis who were detained in Ohio lived in three apartments in Findlay, Ohio, south of Toledo, and worked in several different malls.
''When they came Oct. 31, the immigration agents knocked on the door, and waked us from sleep,'' said Ori Ben-Tur, one of the Ohio detainees who was released on Friday. ''When we asked why they arrest us, they said they suspect we work in illegal jobs. They told us we could probably come back to our apartment the same day, or the day after.''
When the detention dragged on, he said, the Israelis became increasingly worried, and, after several days in detention, arranged legal representation by Mr. Leopold.
Mr. Ben-Tur said he and the others had been interrogated separately.
''Some of the questions weren't so nice for an Israeli, who has served in the army, and fought against terrorism,'' he said. ''I asked them, do they know what Israel thinks of the Arab countries, do they know Israel thinks of America as a big, big friend?''
Mr. Ben-Tur, and his lawyer, said they had no idea why he and most of the others had been released, while two, Oren Behr and Yaniv Hani, were still being detained.
Photo: Ori Ben-Tur and his girlfriend, Rachel Sabag, in background, were among 11 Israeli Jews detained in Findlay, Ohio. The Immigration and Naturalization Service referred to the detainees as ''special'' nonterrorist cases.
(Michael Nash for The New York Times)
momojojo
VIB
Moi je pense ces une manipulation pour relancer économie americain puis une prétexte pour envahir l'Irak c'était leur butAllah wouallem il y en à qui dise que c'est la cia d'autre le mossad, ou les deux
pour le mossad, ils ce base par exemple sur des arrestations genre comme ici mais alors la cia s'annule si le fbi les à éventuellement arrêter
A NATION CHALLENGED: THE DETAINEES; Dozens of Israeli Jews Are Being Kept in Federal Detention
By TAMAR LEWIN with ALISON LEIGH COWAN
Published: November 21, 2001
Among the more than 1,100 people the government has detained since Sept. 11 are dozens of young Israeli Jews who came to the United States in recent months and took jobs selling trinkets at shopping malls throughout the country.
Charged with working without proper papers, some have been kept in detention by the Immigration and Naturalization Service for nearly a month. In some cases, the immigration service has invoked special post-Sept. 11 laws to keep the Israelis in jail but presented no evidence of a link to the terrorism investigation.
''We think there are about 50 in detention now, in San Diego, Houston, Kansas City, St. Louis and Cleveland, and there are some who have been released,'' said Ido Aharoni, a spokesman for the Israeli consulate in New York. ''It's not easy to get an exact count. They may be embarrassed that they were working illegally, and we only find out when their mothers call, because they haven't been in touch, and we check and find them in jail.''
Normally, working without papers is treated as a minor offense, for which foreigners are not detained.
While both the detainees and their lawyers say they are baffled by the detentions, some of those familiar with the cases said they believed the impetus was the interest of law enforcement officials in companies that offer young Israelis -- and perhaps others in the Middle East -- help in coming to, and working in, the United States.
''It's hard to understand,'' said Suzanne Brown, a St. Louis lawyer representing 5 of the 10 Israelis detained there. ''Just today, I talked with the I.N.S. officer in charge of the St. Louis office, who said he doesn't know who is conducting the investigation of the Israelis. And what are they investigating? I don't know.''
In Ohio, on Oct. 31, the immigration service detained nine men and two women, all of whom had valid passports and tourist visas. Nine of the 11 were released on bond on Friday, but two remain in the Medina County jail, outside of Cleveland. The next hearing for the Israelis -- all in their early 20's and recently finished with their Israeli army service -- is scheduled for Nov. 27, in Cleveland.
''It doesn't make sense that they held any of these kids as long as they did, and we don't know of any reason why they're still holding two,'' said David Leopold, the Cleveland lawyer representing them. ''You hear there's more than 1,000 detainees, and if these cases are any example, you have to wonder if they're just locking people up to make it look like they're getting somewhere on their investigation.''
Dan Nelson, a spokesman for the Justice Department, said that he was unaware of the Israeli detainees, but that generally, since Sept. 11, there has been greater scrutiny of those who violate immigration laws.
''We are taking every step we can to prevent future terrorist attacks,'' Mr. Nelson said. ''We are conducting the largest investigation in U.S. history, and we are leaving no stone unturned.''
In New York, immigration officials began deporting five young Israeli moving men who have been in federal custody since Sept. 11. Two of the deportees, Oded Ellner and Omer Gavriel Marmari, landed in Tel Aviv yesterday. The others, Paul Kurzberg and his brother Sivan, and Yaron Shmuel, were expected to fly to Israel today.
The five aroused attention in New Jersey after people noticed them going to unusual lengths to photograph the World Trade Center ruins and making light of the situation. One photograph developed by the F.B.I. showed Sivan Kurzberg holding a lighted lighter in the foreground, with the smoldering wreckage in the background, said Steven Noah Gordon, a lawyer for the five.
As objectionable as their behavior may be, Mr. Gordon said of their long incarceration, ''It's not a crime and they were being treated as if it was.''
The five were asked to take polygraph tests before being allowed to leave. But Paul Kurzberg refused on principle to divulge much about his role in the Israeli army or subsequently working for people who may have had ties to Israeli intelligence, Mr. Gordon said. His client had trouble with one seven-hour polygraph test administered last week, but did better on a second try.
Mr. Kurzberg's lawyer said it was his understanding that Attorney General John Ashcroft had to sign off on his release.
In the Ohio cases, the immigration service said at a hearing last week that the 11 Israelis were ''special'' nonterrorist cases. But Judge Elizabeth Hacker, the immigration judge conducting the hearing, questioned the agency's case for keeping the Israelis in jail.
''Although the service alleges that these cases are 'special,' it has failed to present any credible evidence of the basis for this finding,'' Judge Hacker said in a bond memorandum. ''Indeed, the service has failed to submit any evidence of terrorist activity or of a threat to the national security. There is no evidence of the risk of harm to the community.''
Russell Bergeron, a spokesman for the immigration service, said decisions on when to refuse bond were made case by case.
When Judge Hacker set bond, the government filed an emergency appeal, which, under procedures adopted last month, automatically allows the government extra time to detain people.
At the hearing, the government lawyers said the Israelis were the subject of a criminal investigation by the F.B.I. of an individual or company that promised living and travel expenses in return for selling at shopping-mall pushcarts. The government says the Ohio detainees worked for Quality Sales Inc., a Florida concern.
Tom Dean, the lawyer representing Quality Sales, declined to provide information about the company or its principals, but he said the company was cooperating with federal authorities to resolve ''any concern about possible criminal conduct.''
The F.B.I. refused to comment on its dealings with Quality Sales or other such companies.
Some of those familiar with the cases said such companies may provide an open channel for terrorists to enter the country without background checks.
The Israelis who were detained in Ohio lived in three apartments in Findlay, Ohio, south of Toledo, and worked in several different malls.
''When they came Oct. 31, the immigration agents knocked on the door, and waked us from sleep,'' said Ori Ben-Tur, one of the Ohio detainees who was released on Friday. ''When we asked why they arrest us, they said they suspect we work in illegal jobs. They told us we could probably come back to our apartment the same day, or the day after.''
When the detention dragged on, he said, the Israelis became increasingly worried, and, after several days in detention, arranged legal representation by Mr. Leopold.
Mr. Ben-Tur said he and the others had been interrogated separately.
''Some of the questions weren't so nice for an Israeli, who has served in the army, and fought against terrorism,'' he said. ''I asked them, do they know what Israel thinks of the Arab countries, do they know Israel thinks of America as a big, big friend?''
Mr. Ben-Tur, and his lawyer, said they had no idea why he and most of the others had been released, while two, Oren Behr and Yaniv Hani, were still being detained.
Photo: Ori Ben-Tur and his girlfriend, Rachel Sabag, in background, were among 11 Israeli Jews detained in Findlay, Ohio. The Immigration and Naturalization Service referred to the detainees as ''special'' nonterrorist cases.
(Michael Nash for The New York Times)
mouai un forgerons en tout cas, on à vu a quel point l'equipe bush etait honnete avec l'Irak et ses armes et labo mobiles, les millions de morts (et oui des millions) directement et indirectement de cette guerre et toute la ***** essaimée derriere. Deja rien que le terme complot tente d'empecher toute reflexion sur le mobile du crime et tente de faire passer toute argumentation comme ridicule.
didadoune
VIB
Comment étais l'économie des Us, ils avaient des soucis économique genre?
momojojo
VIB
Pour relancer pour relancer l'industrie de l'armement et que père bush à une société qui fabrique des bombe et à signer des milliards de dollars pour armée l'armée amiricain
le lobby des armes et de l'industrie petroliere sont fortement liés ils font partie de ce qu'on appel le complexe militaro industriel US qui a ses ramifications en politique
ce lobby a besoin de guerres tout simplement...
Sauf qu'après ça, l'économie a été plombée car les usa avaient d'un coup nettement moins de crédibilité.
Ensuite, si c'était un prétexte pour envahir l'irak, pourquoi ben laden (qui aurait été complice selon ta théorie) s'est retrouvé en afghanistan et non pas en irak ?
Et n'oublie pas, le prétexte pour attaquer l'irak, c'était la soit-disant présence d'adm (que personne n'a gobé à l'exception de la population américaine, assommée par les attentats et matraquée par la propagande bush).
Donc, non, ce n'était ni le prétexte contre l'irak et ça n'a pas fait fonctionné l'économie.
De toute façon, si les us veulent faire une guerre quelque part, ils la feront, ils n'ont pas besoin de démolir un bâtiment si symbolique pour ça, comme ça a toujours été le cas.
Quand bien même ils auraient eu besoin d'un prétexte, il aurait suffit de faire sauté un super marché et un métro.
Faut arrêter d'absolument y voir un complot en s'aidant de pseudo-témoignages de pseudo-spécialistes ou de témoins dont personne n'a jamais entendu parler en dehors des seuls sites de complotistes.
Sauf que les bush n'avaient pas besoin de ça. Si les républicains veulent faire une guerre, ils n'ont pas besoin de ça.
momojojo
VIB
Bien sûr arrêté de dire des bêtises faut des prétexte et des arguments pour faire la guerre et guerre ça coûte de l'argent il on tirais de leçon du Vietnam dans cet histoire trop de zone d ombre
et un forgeron travail le bâtiment. ...
Le problème n'est pas ici de travailler dans le bâtiment, mais de connaître la résistance des métaux à la chaleur...
Et alors?
Oui il faut des prétextes...Pour l'Irak une fiole de farine lol...Et pour l'Afghanistan il faudrait faire sauter des immeubles???
Ridicule...
Salam biiovibs,
Répondre aux illuminés c'est déjà leur accorder trop d'importance ^^ à ce stade du complot c'est une religion.
Et je ne comprend pas pourquoi il monte la température à 1800°F ! Surement un complot ^^
à 400° l'acier perd 30% de son élasticité, le résultat aurait été le même.
- La température critique de l’acier, définie comme étant la température à laquelle l’acier n’a plus que 60 % de sa résistance initiale, se situe aux alentours de 538 °C, soit dans l'intervalle habituel où l'embrassement général survient. Par ailleurs, à ce taux de réduction, la résistance ne sera à peine adéquate pour supporter les charges de conception imposées. Après l’embrasement général survient. Par ailleurs, à ce taux de réduction, la résistance ne sera à peine adéquate pour supporter les charges de conception imposées. Après l’embrasement général d’un feu, il est fréquent que les températures soient au-delà de 1 000 °C, cette dernière étant le point où les résistances deviennent quasi nulles. (Source : ICCA 2006)
CQFD
PS: je cherche du pop-corn et j'arrive
Salam leblaze,
Pour que la reconstitution soit fidèle, il faut 50.000 volontaires
TAIS TOI